A Craft Program Closes: Namita Gupta Wiggers gives insight.
In the 65th episode of Perceived Value host Sarah Rachel Brown connects remotely with Namita Gupta Wiggers. Namita is a writer, educator, and curator based in Portland, OR that Sarah met in Chicago during a conference in 2019. Since that time, Sarah has followed Namita’s work with the Critical Craft Forum and the MA in Critical Craft Studies program at Warren Wilson College.
Having learned that the Critical Craft Studies program would be closing, Sarah reached to ask if Namita would share what her role was as the Director of the program and what this closure means for both her and the students. The conversation gives insight as to how the program was created, the intention behind the curriculum, the importance of understanding budgets, and how the college is navigating the logistics of the closure.
This insightful conversation has been produced in two parts.
The extended audio from this conversation is available through the Perceived Value Patreon.
Namita Gupta Wiggers is a writer, educator, and curator based in Portland, OR. Wiggers serves as the founding director of the MA in Critical Craft Studies at Warren Wilson College, the first and only low-residency program focused on craft histories and theory. She co-founded Critical Craft Forum, an online and onsite platform for dialogue and exchange including projects such as annual College Art Association Conference sessions from 2009-2019. Wiggers served as curator and then chief curator and director of Museum of Contemporary Craft/PNCA from 2004–14. Prior experiences as a museum educator, design researcher, studio jeweler, and life as an American of South Asian heritage also shape her research and writing on craft and culture.
@namitapdx
@criticalcraftforum
@macraftstudieswwc
Mentioned in the podcast:
Episode Transcript
12:51.70
perceivedvalue
Because it also didn't make sense. It was like an enamelling show and I was like oh I've never even enameled before but they trust me to try it like ah.
13:00.73
perceivedvalue
And obviously was eager. Yeah, that's really funny. Oh yeah, and so I answer some people call me Rachel some people call me Sarah um.
13:03.00
Namita
Ah, oh my goodness. Yeah, that's oh yeah, that's that would be a good reason to put both names in.
13:17.44
perceivedvalue
Or they use all 3 and I love everything? Well you're kind of that way to Amida like I don't ever I don't think I ever refer to you as just amida I say amida cup to wiggers. It's like such a good name. You know like it rolls off your tongue. So um I also do that. So.
13:30.80
Namita
Um, well when I did jewelry I had my whole name just a banner with just my name on the back and it looks really cool graphically because there's a lot of angles and then a couple of really good curves with the g's.
13:46.00
perceivedvalue
Um, right? Oh yeah.
13:49.26
Namita
And so like as ah as a design thing I was like oh I like how that looks. But yeah.
13:53.10
perceivedvalue
Yeah, it's so funny because you know when I interviewed you on behalf of snag that was twenty sixteen I believe I'm or 2017
14:04.90
Namita
Um I think it might have been later I think it might have been 19
14:09.87
perceivedvalue
Oh yeah, what am I talking about I was already doing the podcast and I started the podcast in 2017 wow Sarah um, but we didn't really talk about your history. Um I guess I didn't really understand that you were a jeweler jeweler.
14:25.70
Namita
Yes.
14:27.55
perceivedvalue
Until on my outline you notice that um, which fascinates me and also makes me very happy because you're somebody I look up to in the craft field so much and I'm like oh she's one of us like awesome. Um and also really makes me happy when I learn somebody that is. I would call you you know a primary like scholarly figure within the craft field and the fact that you were a maker makes me really Happy. Um, because you know at your heart and soul like you were in a studio doing it trying to make a living off your creativity. Um.
15:02.10
Namita
Yeah.
15:05.66
perceivedvalue
And I think that just really informs it sometimes and I don't think it's a bad thing but sometimes I am like little taken back a little when I like at craft organizations people that are working. There are really involved have like never actually been a craftssperson or worked with their hands and that's so bad to say out loud but I can't help it. It's true that um.
15:25.11
Namita
I get it I get it and and this is actually it's interesting because it's something that comes up sometimes in our program. Um, shall I just continue I'm assuming you're recording at this point. Okay, good.
15:25.39
perceivedvalue
You know.
15:33.60
perceivedvalue
Um, yeah, keep going Yay I Usually go with like um, a casual roll in well I guess you know maybe we'll do let's say hello to listeners hi listeners. How are you? um.
15:40.87
Namita
Super.
15:49.20
perceivedvalue
So I'm sitting here with nunita guto wiggers now namida um, we have prepared for this conversation in many ways I'm very excited. Um, you know you're somebody whose career could be like a 5 part podcast series. Um in terms of diving into every angle. Um, and. I just want to like put out there that I really am so thankful that you're willing to discuss. Maybe not the most shiny beautiful part of your career at the right now. Um because I don't know. Can you relate to this like when you're it. Feels really nice when like somebody that you look up to or a mentor shows you like their early work and you're like oh we all start somewhere or all we all have failures or not that this is a failure but like you know I'm saying does that make sense. Okay.
16:36.42
Namita
I do I do and it's it's interesting because I'm doing a I'm going to speak to the Mfa and applied craft and design class on Wednesday it's a program that started at Oregon College of art and craft and Pnc and is now at.
16:47.30
perceivedvalue
M.
16:54.74
Namita
Pnc Willamette University and they wanted me to come in and talk and I said you know I think what I'd like to do is to bring an essay that I'm working on and show the parts and pieces and talk about it in process said because what I feel happens so often and I I think this happens a lot when we do.
17:09.47
perceivedvalue
Um.
17:14.80
Namita
You know the way that that our art schools are structured you bring in somebody who is well known in their field. They give their artists talk they talk about their trajectory but they're showing the work that has been recognized in some way that has already been out in public and then they do studio crits.
17:19.96
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
17:34.20
Namita
And there isn't anything that helps somebody understand how you go from being a student really to getting that first opportunity to turning those opportunities into the next opportunity and I feel like that that's a really, that's a really big gap and it's a place where.
17:45.40
perceivedvalue
Right.
17:53.11
Namita
In terms of professional practices. Um I think there's an opportunity to help people understand. Also when people talk to me about writing I mean they say what do you? You know? how do you feel about being a writer I'm like I like having written That's what I like.
17:59.31
perceivedvalue
And here.
18:06.86
perceivedvalue
Yeah. I relate to that I relate without the podcast I'm like I Love when the podcast is Released. Do I like sitting in a room Editing. No Absolutely not yeah.
18:12.88
Namita
Ah, so.
18:22.20
Namita
Um, no, no and I think it's so helpful for people to understand that we all struggle if if I write something and there aren't tears somewhere along the way in frustration that I'm not getting it where I want it then? um.
18:33.82
perceivedvalue
Um, yeah.
18:35.75
Namita
I know I'm not finished and the piece needs to be continued to be worked on.
18:40.64
perceivedvalue
Wow yes, to that so much. So yes and you're um, not night you're going to be like a little experiment for me because I do have so many things I want to talk to you about and we're going to focus on 1 aspect today but um, listeners. Part two of my conversation with namida is going to be available to my patrons on Patreon so you're going to get this full conversation today. But then the bonus episode will be behind a bit of a paywall which you know for even a dollar a month you can have access to that conversation. So it's still really accessible which is exciting and I honestly we don't really know what we're going to talk about for that part. So it can go. We could talk about like you know cooking your embroidery anything so you just you got to sign up to find out.
19:23.86
Namita
Sounds good.
19:34.68
perceivedvalue
Um, so today you know I've been I'm in a huge professional transition and so that's kind of informing who I'm talking to and why I'm connecting with people and I think when I saw the Facebook or the posts. Announcing the closure of your program that you've helped create at Warren Wilson college my heart just kind of hurt because every time you see the closure of a program or a school or a museum. You're just like ok, another one bites the dust. What's left now. Um in a field that we're already. Striving so hard to document and nurture and grow. Um, so can you introduce yourselves or introduce the program what it is and what you've been working on the past five years with it.
20:22.91
Namita
Sure so the program is the ma in critical craft studies at Warren Wilson college and it is the it's a low residency program and that means that we meet for a short period of time in a 2 weekek intensive. And then the semester continues after that for the regular kind of thing you'd expect in academia of you know, 14 to sixteen weeks and and so forth. It's a 2 wo-year plus one residency program and the focus is on critical craft studies. So there are a number of programs in well I should say a number there are a few programs in the united states that focus on aspects of craft bard college winterter. Ah.
21:04.28
perceivedvalue
A.
21:15.58
Namita
University of wisk of Wisconsin has material studies. Delaware has material studies. There are a number of places where you can go and get connected to craft as connected to decorative arts or material culture or art history. This program starts. From craft itself and we take a very broad understanding of craft. So it's not just craft that's going to end up in museums we actually asked ah a different question. We say witchcraft. Do you want to talk about. Do you want to talk about tourist craft or studio craft or domestic craft. Or queer craft which craft do you want to talk about and that determines what kind of research tools you need in order to be able to investigate the questions and the subject that you're trying to understand so it's really a program to give tools to think about craft. Excuse me to give people tools to think about craft and to investigate in research on their own. Um and to take that forward when they leave the program.
22:24.47
perceivedvalue
Oh wow a few years ago I got nominated to apply. It's funny. You have to be nominated to apply to the emerging voices. Um for the American Craft Council award and I remember the hardest question I had which was what is craft I was like ah Jesus.
22:41.63
perceivedvalue
I Didn't think it would be so hard I was like I don't know I Just it's it's my life. It's my community can I just say that you know I don't think I wrote anything profound when you mentioned I know when I'm crying or whatever I know I've like finished it I've gotten there I never felt that with that application. Um, yeah, and.
22:57.20
Namita
Ah, oh that's so interesting. That's so interesting.
23:00.52
perceivedvalue
Could tell that it wasn't good like when I did my core fellowship application I felt it felt it in my gut like I cried I put everything into it and I didn't have the same feeling um because it's hard to define I mean it's hard to define craft in terms of like. Thinking about however people view it I don't know I understand why there's a whole program about this.
23:24.29
Namita
Well and if you define it tightly you create a box you create ah something with walls that people can push back on and say no, it's not that and then you have to defend yourself.
23:28.18
perceivedvalue
Here.
23:36.12
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
23:38.60
Namita
And so it becomes trapped in the same kind of academic game that has always happened of this person's right, This person's wrong here's why here's why not and I'm not interested in reinforcing and reinscribing that I'm more interested in having a broader conversation that speaks to complexity and depth.
23:51.41
perceivedvalue
Here.
23:57.68
Namita
And breath craft is long. We've been doing craft as long as people started to put things on their body to cover themselves so that they didn't get cold if we take a different view of craft then it opens up all these other possibilities and then you can actually.
23:59.28
perceivedvalue
Right.
24:05.57
perceivedvalue
Um, yeah.
24:16.32
Namita
Examine. Okay, what does it mean to be involved as a small-s scale Jeweler in you know, working out of your home as opposed to a jeweler working for swarofsky creating pieces that are sold in a more production-oriented way.
24:30.95
perceivedvalue
So.
24:32.40
Namita
And then you can have a different kind of conversation and I'm more interested in that conversation than I am figuring out which 1 is actually craft or not.
24:35.95
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
24:42.37
perceivedvalue
I like that I appreciate that and so with that in mind you were the founding director of this program now. What does that mean in terms of that. Um, yeah.
24:56.30
Namita
Well so what it what that means is that I was responsible or I am responsible because I'm still I'm still in the position until June of 23 um I am responsible for shaping the program.
25:09.70
perceivedvalue
Here.
25:11.80
Namita
So figuring out curriculum hiring all the faculty the workshop faculty teaching fellows you know, choosing the students from the applications teaching which was not part of my job description. But I have ended up teaching 2 3 loads almost every single year in order to shape the program and make it what it.
25:23.20
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
25:30.79
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
25:31.41
Namita
Needed to be um I'm responsible for all the administrative side of things but I'm really responsible for creating what the program is and that comes through curriculum and who you choose to bring into the community from faculty to students.
25:38.48
perceivedvalue
A.
25:48.48
Namita
To continue this conversation and to think through the questions together.
25:52.37
perceivedvalue
So as someone who has been really thinking about my career goals and objectives I mean this sounds like a very dreamy job. Did you go to Warren Wilson wilson college and say hey I have this idea. Would you be willing to work with me or did they approach you saying we want a program such as such.
26:12.71
Namita
Well, what actually happened is there was a think tank that the center for kraft put together with Warren Wilson college in 2016 and at the time I was working independently I was doing a lot of curatorial work writing. Public speaking workshops things like that on my own so I wasn't I didn't have a formal institutional affiliation. However I was serving on the board at the center for craft and so working. Yeah, oh yeah, we should explain.
26:41.39
perceivedvalue
Oh can I interject real quick because I don't want to assume that people know what the center for craft is can you tell them where Warren Wilson and center Kraft are.
26:51.14
Namita
Absolutely so center for kraft is located in Nashville North Carolina and it's been around for more than two decades. It is the place in the country where you can find support through funding for grants and through grants and things like that for craft research and um. Craft research. There is everything from support for writing books and things like that to material based research. So it can. It's it's got opportunities for everyone involved in craft from curators to scholars to makers to craftspeople to. You know people who are getting started in the field for the for the first time there's a lot of opportunities and Warren Wilson college is located just half an hour outside of Asheville in Swanna Noah North Carolina so in the appalachian mountains. Yeah.
27:43.56
perceivedvalue
Okay, and are they ah officially affiliated together. Okay.
27:46.66
Namita
No, this was a partnership. This was a program that was the think tank came out as a partnership because Warren Wilson college at that time had just finished a grant cycle with a funder and with winigate foundation. And um, one of the things that they wanted was to create a master's program and they wanted to have an opportunity to think through if this was a good idea what the possibilities were where it could go how it could differentiate itself from other kinds of things going on out in the world and so forth. So they worked with the center for craft and Maryland's app to create a think tank and I was on the board and worked very closely with Maryland through the education committee so we put together a think tank and from that think tank that you can find the think tank online if you go to the center for craft or if you go to. Ah, the Warren Wilson page focused on the Ma and craft studies and because it's all public and oh great. Great I'll make sure I'll make sure and get you that um, but basically what came out of it was the idea that there was a possibility of doing a master's program.
28:48.44
perceivedvalue
Okay, and I can link that guys.
29:03.96
Namita
And I walked away thinking this is great and I wrote a 4 page letter of what I thought the possibilities were of doing something that was a different kind of craft program than what I was seeing happening in schools sent that to Warren Wilson sent that to Maryland and when they announced the position. Ah. It turned out that they were willing to have it be a low residency position. Not just a low residency program but to allow the person who is directing the program to reside off campus and basically come in a couple of times a year to administer the the face-to-face portions. And work with administration so that gave me the chance to stay in Portland continue doing some of the kind of other work that I was doing on my own of traveling around and speaking and things and still be able to do this full time plus job in a remote situation.
29:45.61
perceivedvalue
Is here.
29:58.90
perceivedvalue
Yeah, so then did so you technically had to apply to be able to become the director then or since Okay, okay, you planted the seed but you still had to apply I like that.
30:05.79
Namita
Yes, yes, there was a definitely definitely? Um I don't know how many applications they received. But I know that there were several people who interviewed and um and then I I was.
30:19.21
perceivedvalue
Um, yeah.
30:23.80
Namita
Fortunate to be selected and and you know I'll tell you when I did the application I went all out I thought you know I I know what I wanted when I was in school and I wanted a program that recognized the globe that recognized craft and making across the world.
30:27.61
perceivedvalue
Um, yeah.
30:41.82
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
30:43.74
Namita
And I also wanted a program that brought critical Race theory into the structure of the program itself. So I put together a proposal that was pretty direct and that's that's basically what ended up becoming the program. They accepted. Me They accepted my proposal and that's what we put into action.
31:05.30
perceivedvalue
Before we move forward I Um I would really like if you could share your pronouns and describe yourself to listeners as well because um, we didn't do that and I think that's also really great aspect to kind of point out as someone being put in that position and leading these conversations.
31:19.68
Namita
Sure so I use she her pronouns and I am the daughter I'm american born I was born in Cincinnati Ohio and I'm the daughter of immigrants from India.
31:22.86
perceivedvalue
Is.
31:28.49
perceivedvalue
Here.
31:36.83
Namita
I grew up in Ohio in Jersey in Texas and I've also lived in Chicago and Portland so I've lived in lots of different places. Um my being ah of indian heritage is very important to me and it's something that.
31:55.96
Namita
Surprisingly has not been a part of my craft world experiences in Studio craft. So this program was a way for me to try to create a space for more parts of myself to be visible.
32:02.94
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
32:13.98
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
32:14.67
Namita
Um, there are no there right now there are no directors or leaders of craft institutions or programs in the country that are of my Asian heritage at this time I'm the first South asian.
32:28.20
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
32:33.37
Namita
In the United States to direct non-co collecting ah to direct to collecting art museum that was not ethnically specific and that was when I was at museum of contemporary craft. So my background is coming from lots of different places and different kinds of experiences that come together.
32:49.26
perceivedvalue
Um, and I always like to ask may I ask what your age is okay.
32:54.40
Namita
Sure I'm 55
32:58.99
perceivedvalue
Because I mean for me when I listen to conversations as we were talking about when someone has an artist's talk and they're like I've done all these things and I'm like I'm 37 what have I done with my life. Um, it's nice to have that like insight right? Yeah um like I would say like.
33:11.95
Namita
Absolutely.
33:16.78
perceivedvalue
In your fifty s you're making this profound work happen and it's exciting to see it's exciting for me to think about what I can accomplish in the future still because I think there's a lot of doom and gloom about like if you haven't made it by a certain age or something like that. Um. It's something I think about.
33:35.90
Namita
Well Sarah this is something we should share then that um I started out in museum education and then I transitioned to I went back to graduate school and I was working on my ph d I left that. And worked for a product design firm doing video ethnography and research for thinking about user behavior I left that to become a studio Jeweler and I left studio jewelry when I became a mom because i.
33:57.85
perceivedvalue
Yeah, yeah.
34:08.62
Namita
Didn't want the chemicals and and I had I had been miscarrying and we wanted to be sure that that we kept a safe environment. So from I stayed home with my kids for 5 years it was the hardest thing I've ever done.
34:20.66
perceivedvalue
M.
34:27.36
Namita
Had an amazing garden at that time because that's where I poured all my creative energy. Um, and it was not cleaning the house because I have no interest in that. Um, but I I didn't start.
34:31.24
perceivedvalue
Right? right? right.
34:42.24
Namita
I had never curated when I got my position at the museum and I'd never run a graduate program when I got this position. Um I taught as an adjunct but um I was 37 when I got that job at the museum of contemporary craft in 2004 and um I was 50 when I got this position. So Um I think that.
35:02.90
perceivedvalue
Yeah, and I love that you had never curated when you got that job that is so cool to hear.
35:10.00
Namita
No, no, never had curated a thing I worked in museums I mean we worked in a children's museum in Houston and I worked as the museum educator at the blaffer gallery for 3 years and I started a program.
35:12.76
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
35:24.86
Namita
That is still there and has changed a lot since I I started it but it was called uh reach and it was a focus on high school students and connecting high school students to to the museum and to the art to the idea of art education and pursuing an education.
35:32.50
perceivedvalue
A.
35:43.91
Namita
At a college level. But no I'd never I'd never curated anything but I grew up going to museums and spent a lot of time thinking about them I didn't even know there was a job called curator until I got to to to.
35:47.69
perceivedvalue
Okay.
36:02.15
Namita
So I started studying art history I Never really I went to museums my whole life and I had no idea how things got there. They just I just didn't think about it and there was no one in my world who was ever saying This is how things happen and this is how these these take place and we knew people who were artists they were painters. Um.
36:02.92
perceivedvalue
Love that? yeah.
36:18.92
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
36:21.37
Namita
But and photographers but nobody in my world ever did that as a job so I didn't even know it existed until I got to to to rice to rice university.
36:26.84
perceivedvalue
Yeah, oh I love that it's like the first time I ever exhibited work was my end of year show for my first year at the fellowship at Penland and I hung all my work up and I felt so proud and like nervous because I'd never done it before and. I think I was the only one in the group that had it and then someone walked over and they're like oh um, is everything 60 to center and I was like what does that mean and I had this like total breakdown because they all like assumed I understood like how you like hang things in a gallery and I never heard 60 to center.
36:52.22
Namita
Oh no.
37:03.13
perceivedvalue
And I totally cried and then had to like rehang things. Um I love that I love that? Okay, so getting back? Oh yeah.
37:10.36
Namita
So I'll I just have to tell you we didn't we didn't do sixty to center. We did 58 yeah
37:16.88
perceivedvalue
Oh Wow. Okay, so you really could do whatever you want I Also like I did throw a little bit of a fit. There are some necklaces I didn't move and I was like I'm the artist I want my necklaces to hang here that I just left them.
37:30.67
Namita
Absolutely and I believe that at some point that's where museums have to stop and say okay, let's let's figure out what the issue is that sixty to Center doesn't have to be the the standard and it's it's yeah yeah.
37:46.22
perceivedvalue
Yeah, seems arbitrary I don't want to do it and also I don't like the math I don't like doing the math. Um, so that is amazing so you apply you get the job. Ah, thank god you're not like um, old white man in his sixty s thank you. Um, please and ah yeah, right, shout out to Navida. Um, so wow. Ok so but then it stins in that you get this job. Um, and the probably the like.
38:04.96
Namita
I I appreciate that every day. Ah.
38:22.36
perceivedvalue
Where do you even start like where did you start creating the program at it seems overwhelming.
38:26.64
Namita
Ah, it's such a good question. You start with the people you know are ready to experiment and you start with looking at you know I knew that I wanted to have a certain kind of curriculum and that's what's in place I wanted. Ah, history and theory track I wanted a materials lab track where people would think about and experiment with what materials are in Materiality and then I wanted a research methods lab where it wasn't just let's teach people how to research, but let's teach you. Teach people how to apply what they're reading and thinking because that's what artists don't have and craftspeople don't have they they read things and they they know how to bring it in to themselves and put it back out through their work but being a historian or a theorist is about bringing it in.
39:03.11
perceivedvalue
Here.
39:11.52
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
39:19.95
Namita
Thinking about it and putting it back out there into a really different kind of conversation. So I wanted to create that and then I wanted it ah to be a track that was um called practicum not a thesis. This is not a thesis This is a practicum. It is an application of.
39:33.20
perceivedvalue
Okay.
39:38.88
Namita
Research methods that people have learned to the subject and the questions the research question that somebody is trying to understand and most of them have taken the form of ah of a paper an extended paper a couple of people have done exhibitions. But.
39:55.37
perceivedvalue
A.
39:58.51
Namita
And this year one person will be doing a film. So ah yeah, yeah, it didn't have to be a paper but I think it would be fair to say that writing is the primary way we teach people how to convey what they're doing words are.
40:00.12
perceivedvalue
Oh that's cool see they could do whatever they want. It didn't have to be a paper.
40:16.96
Namita
Words are the primary tool and medium for expressing thinking in this kind of a program. So the person who's doing the the person who's doing the the film is writing a paper. Also.
40:21.88
perceivedvalue
Right.
40:28.89
perceivedvalue
Mary and I thought about you know I kind of daydreamed about this type of program sounded like something that for the first time in my life in some ways I thought oh I think I could flourish in that like maybe that's something that I should do and I yeah i. Played around with the idea of like how I would do a podcast series for it. But I write my scripts like I think people think I'm a little much a bit more on the cuff than I am but I mean I'm sure you solve my outline I do a lot of research and my introductions are written scripts. So. That's if I did it I would do it.
41:03.65
Namita
You have to prepare ah that would be amazing. Yeah, um, one of the students came in thinking that they were going to do podcasts and they ended up doing an exhibition using sound recording so it was Michael Michael Hatch did an exhibition.
41:05.55
perceivedvalue
Yeah, yeah.
41:19.10
perceivedvalue
Um.
41:20.35
Namita
And looking at Appalachian Craft so there's a way that what you're talking about and and and you know Sarah it's also really important too I think that bringing up podcasts as part of research I think.
41:23.37
perceivedvalue
Right.
41:36.46
Namita
Important to mention that in our program we teach our students How to do oral histories and interviews and how to think about listening and podcasts are considered as much a research tool as the written word in our program. Um, sitting at somebody's feet and listening to them tell a story is just as important So This is a and more expanded view of what constitutes research What constitutes an archive and so to get it Started. You know I needed I needed to find people who were going to be able to experiment.
41:54.44
perceivedvalue
Ms.
42:13.60
Namita
Um, and also people who are willing to try to teach in a new format. Um, and the third thing is to be willing to teach collaboratively. So over the course of the 5 years our faculty our core faculty.
42:14.20
perceivedvalue
Um.
42:22.32
perceivedvalue
Oh yeah.
42:29.14
Namita
Share our syllabi together. We review them together. We discuss how they connect together places where you know. For example, you know Tom Martin and Sarah Kluidge are teaching about aesthetics but they teach the same piece of writing in really different ways and that's meant that's.
42:44.97
perceivedvalue
Here.
42:48.50
Namita
Brilliant and by knowing that each of them is doing this. It just strengthens the opportunity for the students to be able to make different kinds of connections because the faculty are aware of it. So this is not how teaching happens in Academia you know you don't teach in front of your colleagues. It's very.
43:01.65
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
43:07.15
Namita
Unnerving for some people but it's something that I think comes from craft in that craft is about collaborative learning. It's about exchange and I want academia to work that way too.
43:15.27
perceivedvalue
Right.
43:21.88
perceivedvalue
So when I thought about and we're discussing this program in death because you are going to be transitioning out of this incredible program that you have created in the position that you've held the last five years because um, the school has decided to. Or announced that they're closing the program correct and so that is why we're talking about it which is a little sad because the more I learn about it. The more excited I get um and remind me I want to circle back and maybe this is bonus footage but I do want to talk I tried to apply for grant.
43:40.14
Namita
Correct.
43:57.79
perceivedvalue
I Wanted to do the research Grant application for the center for craft and design. But um, there were some barriers in it for me in terms of like how to apply as like a podcaster remind me I want to ask your opinion on that because I think you could give me some really exciting insights? Um, so.
44:10.23
Namita
Um, okay sounds good.
44:17.11
perceivedvalue
When this program My first um question that comes to mind is what was the intention Beyond. Of course you know teaching about craft and these ways of learning together and teaching together in collaboration. But when someone graduates with the degree. What. Could their career trajectory be um, in some different examples. Beyond Just you know a professor.
44:45.17
Namita
So it's a complicated question and I think um, it's complicated because it has to do with place and local economies. There are some students who have gone through the program Matt Lambert being a great example. Ah who have gone on.
44:51.49
perceivedvalue
Um, okay.
45:01.25
Namita
To further graduate studies and phoenix booth also has gone on to further graduate studies so we can prepare students for further work in academia if that's what they want and we can get them help them prepare for that. We also have other students like Mike Hatch who lives in in Weaverville which is a little which is closer to Penland in North Carolina and Mike has been on the board of the Southern Highland craft guild for a number of years Mike is not and is a glassblower Mike is not leaving Weaverville.
45:24.94
perceivedvalue
Oh yep, might know we Wereville.
45:35.96
perceivedvalue
Right.
45:40.11
Namita
Mike is not taking this this master's degree and doing all this work in order to find a new job in a new city mike is doing it in order to add to his own learning and skills and tools to figure out what to do to document local histories. So. And I think um I think by the time this podcast comes out. It's okay to say that Mike just received um the position of archivist at the Southern Highland craft guild so here's a great example of somebody who.
46:09.45
perceivedvalue
Oh wow.
46:15.24
Namita
Was using the archive researched in the archive created a project through the program and learned how to do something to then be able to do that kind of a position in addition to his glass blowing work as well. Um, other people are using it to.
46:26.72
perceivedvalue
Um, yeah.
46:34.20
Namita
Develop writing skills and we've have a couple of students who are interested in. They don't want to lose their studio work every single one of our students by the way has craft in their lives. Um, not all of them have bfas or mfas but they all have making and.
46:47.72
perceivedvalue
That's amazing.
46:52.11
perceivedvalue
A.
46:53.54
Namita
that's that's I think an important thing to to understand in terms of who is doing this work and then what kind of positions are open for them so they're applying it where they live. Um, there are also students who like Sarah Kelly who
46:57.60
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
47:11.11
Namita
Was able to secure the wingate curatorial fellowship for curating at arizona state university after ah, wingate fellowship at the Asheville art museum and so she's been able to move through different curatorial roles in that regard as well. So.
47:29.27
perceivedvalue
So it's broad. No, it's good.
47:30.93
Namita
It's a long answer. It's ah it's a long answer. But I think it's because what's complicated is that the structures and systems and how we understand a degree to work is that the degree opens up a platform for you to move to something else.
47:47.69
perceivedvalue
Right.
47:50.13
Namita
And I think that this degree offers that for some people and it also offers the opportunity for you to deepen and strengthen what you're already doing where your feet are hitting the ground and that local focus I think connects to. Um, something really important that gets overlooked a lot in terms of you know what success post graduation is supposed to look like.
48:18.12
perceivedvalue
Yeah, yeah, um, also Aaron Decker did it right? No, he didn't.
48:21.85
Namita
No aaron didn't end up doing it. He thought about it and we talked a lot for several years but he he did not end up applying.
48:32.83
perceivedvalue
Ok, ok, ok, um, so can we give insight to the financial aspects of the program for listeners. Um, because I mean when a program closes.
48:38.97
Namita
Sure.
48:45.86
perceivedvalue
It's usually comes down to finances on the institution's part and I'm going to make the assumption although you know assumptions aren't good. Um that that had a big part to do with Warren Wilson's decision to close the program. Um, but. Can we start with by talking about how much the program costs for students to attend.
49:03.92
Namita
Sure the program began at $22000 per semester plus $4000 for the residency and so the total cost would have been 22 plus 22 plus 4 plus 4 plus 2 for the final residency now the program costs 22500 the residency is 4310 and the culminating residency is two thousand so the total two-year program.
49:24.36
perceivedvalue
Okay.
49:39.19
Namita
For the last three years is fifty Five thousand seven hundred twenty dollars so that's for the full two ah years plus final residency.
49:44.45
perceivedvalue
Um, and okay and then it's like any other program where people can apply for financial aid and scholarships or is.
49:54.87
Namita
Financial aid is a little trickier because there aren't as money financial aid things offered for graduate programs. But there is financial aid available. So everybody had the option to do that and in terms of scholarships.
50:02.26
perceivedvalue
Okay.
50:11.10
Namita
We received support from the wingate foundation for scholarships but I will be honest with you. It's limited. It certainly didn't cover a full ride for anybody. We tried our best to give everybody something to help out. But.
50:13.73
perceivedvalue
Okay, right.
50:24.23
perceivedvalue
Um.
50:31.20
Namita
And some people were given higher amounts based on financial need and and so forth and merit. Um, but ah, it never covered the full amount in any way shape or form.
50:46.30
perceivedvalue
So as founding director I mean you're hiring people you're you are the visionary behind the program. How do you decide how much a program costs. Oh interest, got it.
50:57.98
Namita
That's not my decision. Yeah, that's not my decision My my role in that is to give the numbers to the the people on campus who are supposed to be responsible for making those decisions.
51:13.20
perceivedvalue
Okay.
51:15.50
Namita
So I did the research I made a proposition and then it was taken to my boss at the time who was the vice president for academic affairs and the vice president for enrollment and marketing and the Cfo and and the financial aid. Ah.
51:29.14
perceivedvalue
Got it.
51:33.51
Namita
Person who is in charge of financial aid and together they were to vet and um determine the costs based on the research and the proposal that I made um I'm going to be honest with you that that.
51:46.33
perceivedvalue
Right.
51:53.24
Namita
Process In this case didn't go as well and as smoothly as I think it could have um and that was because of various administrative things going on on the campus. So the amount of the tuition.
51:59.67
perceivedvalue
Okay.
52:12.80
Namita
What ended up happening with the tuition hike that happened in 2020 that ended up becoming the decision of the cfo who is now no longer at Warren Wilson she left the summer but she determined that what needed to be increased and made that change.
52:31.74
perceivedvalue
So You launched this program and in the middle of it. The pandemic hit and the pandemic had a huge effect on everything any small business Any academic program etc. So um, can you speak to in your. In your opinion. Do You think that if the pandemic hadn't happened that the program might have not been canceled. Do you think that that was something that like gravely affected. Um it getting canceled.
53:05.90
Namita
It's a great question I think what didn't happen because of the pandemic is that I wasn't visiting conferences. Um, we we met in person for the first time at.
53:15.50
perceivedvalue
Here. Right? We're right.
53:20.39
Namita
The snag conference the society of North American Goldsmiths conference. Um, one of the biggest assets for marketing was my my connections through through the field and I usually go to multiple conferences and um.
53:39.74
Namita
That's a place where people see me and talk with me and ask me questions and find out what they need to know so that they can talk to their students and help their students apply and so forth that all had to go online and that was I think a big a big hardship. In terms of marketing and recruiting because I wasn't out there and that was really my primary responsibility. We had an admissions person who did did a lot of support work but that was a primary part of what I did was the marketing.
54:13.99
perceivedvalue
I didn't even think about that I don't even think I put that on your outline about marketing and how you were probably like the key aspect of it or ambassador for the program. Wow.
54:16.40
Namita
And.
54:24.33
Namita
Well and Sarah you know in some ways I think I had it better than a lot of people I've talked to a lot of my colleagues who are chairs of programs craft-related programs and this is a whole other topic that at some point you should you should you should talk to more people like.
54:33.75
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
54:43.25
Namita
Who like who are have these jobs and what they're doing and and no I was responsible not just for the curriculum and hiring faculty and making sure and teaching and making sure that students were cared for and and and planning and executing residencies planning and executing all of the online.
54:43.89
perceivedvalue
Um, yeah.
55:02.72
Namita
Semester courses. But I was responsible for the marketing I had I was the contact for the fundraising folks who were supposed to be responsible for fundraising for us I served on the graduate council.
55:12.72
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
55:17.42
Namita
I worked with financial aid if they needed support and assistance. We do all of our own tracking of budget. Warren Wilson does not do quarterly profit and loss reports. So it means that we have to have a ghost budget that we manage our budgeting on and there is an online.
55:26.98
perceivedvalue
Okay.
55:36.57
Namita
System where the finance department uploads numbers and things but coding takes a lot of time and so it's never completely in sync. So we have to have a ghost budget that we run in order to make sure our expenses are staying on track I worked with.
55:46.92
perceivedvalue
Right.
55:55.81
Namita
Our marketing team um to direct the look of our advertising and I have to say Ben Linle is amazing and helped us develop the look for all of the marketing advertisements and materials. But then um.
56:15.91
Namita
Program manager Jesse shiers and I were responsible for placing all the advertising I run the instagram Jesse runs the quarterly newsletter and things like that. But those are all parts of the job in addition to um, you know directing.
56:27.87
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
56:33.36
Namita
Ah, the curriculum.
56:34.58
perceivedvalue
How'd you good Lord Ah how'd you negotiate your salary like did was it a salary that you rear like oh this is I mean you probably didn't have a lot of side hustles At this time it doesn't seem like you would have much time for anything but.
56:48.43
Namita
You know, let's just say that I'm a girl who doesn't say no really? Well so I did have a lot of side hustles and little side jobs and and that's an interesting thing. We should talk about in terms of transition and why I do that? um and we we should come back to that. But.
56:51.43
perceivedvalue
Right.
56:58.90
perceivedvalue
Right.
57:05.21
Namita
Ah, the job when I received the offer I negotiated pretty hard and that was because um I I asked for funds to have a research fund of $10000 for research and development.
57:20.28
perceivedvalue
I say.
57:22.31
Namita
With the idea that that would support any kind of books or resources or conference attendances and things like that that I would need to do to figure out. You know if I'm trying to build a program that brings critical Race theory and global perspective in then I need to be places where I can find different faculty.
57:40.19
perceivedvalue
Right.
57:42.17
Namita
Can't just be at the American Craft Council Conferences or at snag or places like that I need to go to other places because those are predominantly white spaces and I need to go to places where I'm not going to be in only white environments. Um I also negotiated ah a certain amount for travel.
57:46.72
perceivedvalue
Right.
57:54.40
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
58:01.80
Namita
So that I could go back and forth to the campus 6 times a year including for both residencies. Ah, and then also some academic travel for marketing and going to conferences to promote the program and so forth. Um, but I also pushed hard on. You know if the position was one that I was. I was taking a if I was if I had been taking a museum job. My salary would have been a certain kind of salary based on my experience and so I pushed hard to have a comparable salary and I was successful at that and that's the first time I've really negotiated for something like that and um.
58:20.84
perceivedvalue
Okay.
58:33.69
perceivedvalue
Oh good for you? Yeah power negotiation man it's important and I don't feel like we talk about it enough like I feel I really struggle with that where I am just I feel like I've worked so hard and I just want these experiences so badly that.
58:36.29
Namita
It felt really good. Yeah yeah.
58:52.84
perceivedvalue
It's hard not to just say yes immediately because you're so afraid that it could be taken away. Um and stand your ground right.
58:56.82
Namita
Yes, or that it's not going to happen again right? You're afraid Oh if I say no, they won't think of me again next time or it won't happen again and you know it's it's it's hard. It's hard.
59:07.71
perceivedvalue
Um, yeah, yeah, or somebody else will do it for cheaper and yeah, especially with podcasting and I think people like really um I have I have a hard time explaining. The amount of work that goes into this and how valuable my time is for it. So.
59:26.32
Namita
I Completely understand that I think the Hidden the Hidden labor of our field is something that needs to be discussed. Yeah.
59:40.16
perceivedvalue
Yeah, yeah, so when did you first hear rumblings about because I miss I don't know how universities and schools or how your program specifically how they um.
59:56.28
perceivedvalue
Track its profitability or etc like did this University Or College sorry tell you that you had to have x amount of people enrolled each time or looking at how many applications you were receiving was that a way of them kind of quantifying its success.
01:00:15.80
Namita
It's a great question. Those are definitely metrics that I think everybody uses I think that's pretty common in this situation. It was clear that well we had a new provost come in in 2020
01:00:15.14
perceivedvalue
That makes sense. M.
01:00:29.70
perceivedvalue
What's a provost.
01:00:31.19
Namita
So the provost as I understand it is basically the person who's in charge of the academic side of things and um, you know, essentially run so before that the position was vice president for academic affairs. The provost is tends to be more.
01:00:44.36
perceivedvalue
Okay.
01:00:50.83
Namita
Shaping vision for the president on and implementing new initiatives and and takes I think more of a leadership role than perhaps a Vp um as a title would would imply I Think that's what it is. Ah.
01:01:03.16
perceivedvalue
Ok I mean I've only ever heard that term on like an episode of the gilmore girl. So like sure. Yeah, let's go with that. Okay.
01:01:14.32
Namita
But but um, yeah, it's I mean basically he's my boss and you know and um, when he came on I explained to him that ah the program when it was when it was initiated was vetted through faculty.
01:01:18.88
perceivedvalue
Okay, yeah.
01:01:31.69
Namita
So the faculty body had to vote on this program and say yes we want to have this come through. Um, partly so that the academic side of it is is you know that that it's been vetted by your peers and your colleagues who are checking if the program is is solid and so forth. In terms of academic rigor but also because knowing that that means that resources are going to get distributed in a certain way that brings this new program into into the fold. What did not happen is that this program did not get vetted through the. Administrative side of things so when I arrived in 2017 ah, for my very first campus meeting. It was the first time that or it seemed to be the first time that the registrar financially the troller and ah the financial aid folks and certain people. We're learning that this program was going to be launched within a year it was supposed to launch January of 2019. There was a new president Lynn Morton who came in it at the same time I did in 2017.
01:02:36.95
perceivedvalue
Here.
01:02:47.23
Namita
And Lyn said no we can't wait. We have to launch it faster so everything that was meant to be a year and a half of planning vetting getting everything ready meant that we had to launch the application that fall. With all the information ready to go in order to secure a class to start in the fall of 2018 so it foreshortened the entire process.
01:03:14.47
perceivedvalue
Right? right.
01:03:16.51
Namita
So while the administration across the campus is figuring out what's going on. We're developing marketing materials and promotional materials and doing all of that at the same time. It wasn't ah it was less than ideal. It was less than ideal. So a little a little rushed.
01:03:26.28
perceivedvalue
Yeah, sounds a little rushed.
01:03:33.73
Namita
Um, the good thing was we had already had our accreditation approved with 0 comments or feedback which I understand is is a big thing. Basically you have to write up what the program is going to do you send it to an accreditation. Ah ah organization and then they have to approve or not they say yes you can do this program or not ours came back with 0 comments which apparently doesn't happen very often. So the accreditation was a big thing also happening at the same time.
01:04:01.77
perceivedvalue
Ass is so that's like the Fda for like a new drug to like put it in context of somebody outside of academia and on your first trial. You got the vaccine approved bave. This is great.
01:04:08.80
Namita
That's a great. Yeah yeah, that's totally a great analogy. Yes, absolutely.
01:04:17.78
perceivedvalue
Okay, that I owe it? yeah.
01:04:17.98
Namita
I Like that Oh my God I'm going to totally keep that story. That's a great way to talk about it. Um, so in some ways we talk a lot about how we were flying the plane while we were building it at the same time it was It was a lot. It was a lot.
01:04:30.80
perceivedvalue
Yeah, that sounds stressful.
01:04:35.67
Namita
So with that to get to the question about admission and finances and enrollment and all of that It was really clear the first year we had a lot of interest when the program was announced it nearly broke the campus server because the activity was so much.
01:04:48.37
perceivedvalue
Oh my god.
01:04:50.53
Namita
And um, it was the most wide it is the most widely shared story from Warren Wilson college in their entire history. So that first year what happens is you get a lot of people who are risk takers and entrepreneurs who apply right? folks who are.
01:04:58.30
perceivedvalue
Here.
01:05:06.93
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
01:05:09.75
Namita
Saying I want to I want to be on the ground I want to try this the second year you have a plummet and we didn't get a whole lot of applications and in speaking with colleagues people like Lydia Matthews who has founded a number of of making oriented and in graduate programs.
01:05:14.87
perceivedvalue
M.
01:05:29.22
Namita
And a number of other people. This is a common thing and then you have a increase again the third year well the thing is the third year is when covid hit and so yes, we had an increase but it was a very different situation and people were recognizing that their lives.
01:05:33.21
perceivedvalue
Right.
01:05:48.20
Namita
And their social world and then their academic world was all in this box and that was really hard and it became very challenging so to be more specific to your question those were factors. It was really clear when the provost came on I made it clear to him.
01:05:50.99
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
01:06:06.00
Namita
That we needed to have a more formalized business plan that was vetted through all the departments. So 2020 was crisis mode for the college to adapt to covid 2021 was crisis mode to adapt to the college and you know every every small liberal arts college.
01:06:09.84
perceivedvalue
Here.
01:06:25.22
Namita
Is is struggling financially too. So There were things that were being addressed. There. So What happened in 21 is I asked the provost to have a meeting with a senior cabinet and we presented a plan that showed what the enrollment needed to be in order to. Break even and cover all our costs and turn a profit for the college and at at some point unfortunately that particular meeting also coincided with a wingate report that needed to be delivered by the vice president of advancement.
01:06:48.77
perceivedvalue
Um, yeah.
01:07:02.95
Namita
And I'm being very transparent and open here with you and with with listeners um with a job that I still hold So I'm trying to be very careful in how I phrase all of this Oh I won't no.
01:07:03.91
perceivedvalue
Yeah.
01:07:09.97
perceivedvalue
Yeah, no yeah and and please do' not say anything you even have the slightest gut feeling about. Yeah yeah, okay.
01:07:21.62
Namita
No I won't I won't so what ended up happening is the meeting ended up shifting to the wingate. Both the the um the wingate write up and grant report as well as the wingate proposal that was going out next and. I spent the better part of the next several months repeatedly asking for a time to meet with the Cfo and never got it. Um I tried to emphasize that enrollment.
01:07:48.70
perceivedvalue
Right.
01:07:58.36
Namita
Was not my responsibility. It was the responsibility of the admissions department and that they needed support they needed help they needed marketing dollars I had a budget and I was putting money in and and doing a lot of Instagram work we were doing online.
01:08:12.65
perceivedvalue
Right.
01:08:16.75
Namita
Meetings and things like that. So March comes along and I have a meeting with the provost and the provost says based on us coming into this next phase of the pandemic I'm going to let you know that we have 3 years to get this right? it to get the enrollment to where we wanted to be what we wanted ideally was 10 to 12 enrolled students with a maximum of of 15 and what we know that would be per class per class. Yeah.
01:08:41.92
perceivedvalue
Okay, and that's a mixture of first and second years. Okay sorry I had it in yet. Okay.
01:08:52.87
Namita
Yeah, no, that's a great question. It would be per class per cohort as we say um and we have ah 8 students right now. Well we have 7 students in the class of 23 right now. So the provost said this to me. I was continuing to work on the budget I finally got a meeting with the cfo. We reviewed the budget and the next week I got a request from the provost to meet and he told me that they were canceling the program.
01:09:25.30
perceivedvalue
And.
01:09:29.52
Namita
So what I hope comes through in this is that there were decisions that are made outside of my engagement. My having been a part of them. Um, there were ah.
01:09:39.87
perceivedvalue
Right.
01:09:46.93
Namita
There were requests to examine the finances that didn't get met and and requests for support from other administrative functions that were challenging and didn't happen.
01:09:50.89
perceivedvalue
Right.
01:10:03.22
Namita
And this is this goes back to what I said before about at the at the inception of this program. It was not vetted through the administrative circles and the reason I'm being this honest and direct is because we are seeing so many academic and I'll speak just about academic programs. We're seeing them close.
01:10:10.44
perceivedvalue
Right.
01:10:19.50
perceivedvalue
Um, yeah.
01:10:22.24
Namita
And the problem is that the people who are implementing the programs and responsible for the students and the student experience are not always being engaged in the decision making and it is coming from people who are looking at the budget and the bottom line in particular ways. But we are not in the meetings necessarily where we can have the conversations to speak in budgetary and monetary terms in order to remedy or rectify the what's happening and that's a problem.
01:10:57.98
perceivedvalue
Right? Yeah, that's a really big disconnect. It's.
01:11:01.35
Namita
It is It is and this is where I think that if you know a lesson to be learned from this is something that I see and I I suggest it everybody who is a faculty member get into the budgets learn how budgets at your institution work. Figure out who the the gatekeepers are for decision making and ask questions not about the academic side not playing off of emotions but think about how to ask the questions that are about the money and.
01:11:22.80
perceivedvalue
Hey.
01:11:37.14
perceivedvalue
Bright.
01:11:39.72
Namita
Bottom line that's a different kind of language and it's something that I think we need to be doing more.
01:11:47.79
perceivedvalue
And I you know it's something that I really think about a lot is that these institutions they're businesses. You know they're not I mean at some point you have to really grapple with the fact that um, you being a student is.
01:11:52.94
Namita
They are.
01:12:05.79
perceivedvalue
Ah, paycheck for them in some ways and um, it's hard to think about it in that way when you're really passionate like when something's so intertwined with your passions to want to so think about both sides of it. But you really have to um so you so when they. Told you that the program was closing and how much lay it longer until they announced it to the public was it very very quick.
01:12:31.68
Namita
It's a great question. Um, at my insistence it was announced within a week
01:12:36.93
perceivedvalue
Okay, oh your insistence I like that where they're gonna like try to like leave it secret for enrollment purposes or something like that.
01:12:50.98
Namita
So I will say that there were the factor that led to that was that april first was when all of the incoming students were required to deposit for the class of 24 so
01:12:51.96
perceivedvalue
6
01:13:07.40
perceivedvalue
And.
01:13:09.99
Namita
This decision was made in the week preceding that so they needed to have time to ah to hear and process and understand that they had been accepted to a program that was no longer continuing.
01:13:24.28
perceivedvalue
Right? Good for you to like that is the next part of my question. Um I mean I don't hold a degree So I don't really think about when places like um.
01:13:25.77
Namita
Thank you.
01:13:39.79
perceivedvalue
Oregon College of art is that the name of the school I remember within that one closed a lot of people you know because I'm so close in the craft community were posting about it and the thing that I think about is what does that mean when a you get your degree through a place that no longer exists.
01:13:42.56
Namita
Oregon College of art and craft.
01:13:59.61
perceivedvalue
Um.
01:14:00.61
Namita
It's a great question. Um, what happens is that institution. Well let's use OCA C Oregon college of art and craft as the example because that institution closed what happens is.
01:14:08.92
perceivedvalue
Okay.
01:14:17.65
Namita
And I don't know who it is but somebody in town is basically responsible for helping with any kind of transcripts or school records those become those are very important and so somebody is stewarding those I have no idea who but I can tell you like for example years and years later.
01:14:26.90
perceivedvalue
Bray.
01:14:37.51
Namita
If you go to the western North Carolina archives there are the academic records from Black Mountain College are there and not all of them are available but the ones where they've been able to reach a person the person who whose records they are or somebody related to them. Those records are public and you can.
01:14:42.62
perceivedvalue
Oh yeah.
01:14:57.80
Namita
See what people took as their classes and things like that. But um, someone is taking care of that. Ah Warren Wilson college will be responsible for any kind of of registrarial transcript work or things like that that need to happen. Um, and the class of 23 will complete their degrees and there is 1 student who elected to come to the program knowing that all of us so all of the core faculty who are are part of the program right now and that's Ben Lyn yels Sarah Kluge and Tom Martin all and Anna Helgeson all of them will continue teaching through June and then in june all of us leave including Jesse Shiers who's the program manager we all leave and our contracts are done where our work. We're not kind I'm not contracted but their contracts are done.
01:15:37.44
perceivedvalue
Okay.
01:15:52.83
Namita
And then next year Anna Helgeson will be working 1 on 1 with that one student to complete their degree under the supervision of the dean of research at Warren Wilson college
01:16:03.00
perceivedvalue
Oh interesting. So they so badly wanted to be a part of the program that they still signed up knowing they'd only get 1 year of like this full experience that you have created and then they continue on for their second year in a very different experience. Do they get a.
01:16:16.77
Namita
Yes, yes, yes, so their coat.
01:16:22.21
perceivedvalue
They get a discount for the second year sorry I had you know it's certainly should be cheaper I'm going to advocate for that person just say I hope they're giving you a discount I'm going to say it is.
01:16:24.10
Namita
I I don't know I don't know I I advocated for it. But it's out of my hands. but but I I I would hope so but I like I said it's out of it's out of my hands that becomes a decision of the Cfo now the interim cfo and we have an interim president of the college and the provost so it becomes their decision.
01:16:49.63
perceivedvalue
Right.
01:16:56.50
perceivedvalue
Ah, how you doing I mean I feel like it's must not be fun to think about. But also you must be so proud of what you've done I mean 5 years it's a lot of work.
01:17:10.26
Namita
I'm today I'm okay and it's partly because I was listening to I one of the people I follow on Instagram is chef Jenny Dorsey and she does a lot of of deia work through food.
01:17:11.73
perceivedvalue
E.
01:17:20.17
perceivedvalue
Oh okay.
01:17:25.39
Namita
And and um, she mentioned this person named and I'm going to mispronounce his name but Ogi Ogas and he's a neuroscientist and he's Written. He's co-written a book on the dark horse and achieving success and fulfillment and things like that and. Listening to that has been helpful in reframing? Um, reframing this for myself. But um, what I'm proud of is what the students and and and all of my.
01:17:49.60
perceivedvalue
Right.
01:18:01.77
Namita
Colleagues and and the core faculty and the workshop faculty and the teaching fellows and the mentors have achieved in um, opening up a space for really different kinds of of craft research to take place.
01:18:19.68
perceivedvalue
Bright.
01:18:21.59
Namita
And that's what I'm really proud of you know that that there are different kinds of things people are doing that don't just slot into the structures and systems that have been put in place so they're not having to write about. The same things that everybody is writing about all the time or write about it in the same way. They actually have the tools to advocate for different ways of expressing. What's what's going on different ways of bringing together their craft making experience with. Now. They're newfound research and writing and communication skills. So It's about giving tools to people to do what they need to do to find their voice and at the same time for the faculty and all the educators you know for all of us to have a chance to really.
01:19:04.50
perceivedvalue
This.
01:19:15.34
Namita
Think through what does it mean to teach what does it mean to teach collaboratively and what does it mean to build a new program that's been the exciting part for me.
01:19:28.77
perceivedvalue
Yeah, have you thought about um well course you've thought about it. Sorry that's dumb thing to say but do you have any real idea of like what you'll transition to next like do you have something in mind or you kind of just.
Episode fades out….
